The Gaming Den

Maj wrote:How can you look like an ethnicity that spans race and culture?

How can you be so stupid and pedantic at the same time? It's not like you're posting anything here except to troll. Like 'separatist feminism' which isn't feminism at all, and there are less adherents than pedophiles in this country, yet you blither on about it as if it were something main stream.

Apparently, the mistaken impression that muslims and arabs (and sikhs) are all the same is something for you to get all pedantic about and argue 'it's not racism!' for what reason, exactly?

Are you going to go tell them it's okay, they're not racists, for ascribing their enemy as 'muslims' even though they did so in a way that targeted specific ethnic appearances?

WTF!

-Crissa

Kaelik wrote:No, I'm not moving goalposts.

PS: The world is not about you. If you're not moving goalposts, maybe I'm not referring to you. Since you're busy arguing something about something in another thread on another board that I did not and will not read. Much like the majority of your posts.

Crissa, calm the fuck down. You're making shit up again.

Edit: Deleted your PM without reading. I'm not interested in your justification. Every action that has ever been done by anyone in the history of the world was justified to the perpetrators of the actions in some way, for good or for ill.

Crissa, stop being a bitch to Maj.

You don't like people who hate Muslims for 9-11. That's fine. We don't like them too.

But just because we don't like them doesn't give you the right to talk shit about them when it's no longer true. They are people too.

Hating Muslims isn't racism. It's religious intolerance. It falls under the greater umbrella called "prejudice".

Assuming they also hate Arabs just because they hate Muslims is just that - an assumption. And given how big of a crackhead you are it's better to err on the side of caution whenever you assert another assumption.

Get your fucking terms right before bitching. And stop being such prejudiced whiner.

ubernoob wrote:No, we have another word for that. Expand your vocabulary.

Not to be pedantic, but xenophobia is a fear of all things foreign. It wouldn't be a hatred for sharing a specific nationality, but for not sharing one. When someone is fine with people from every culture/nationality but one, they aren't a xenophobe. According to you, they aren't a racist either. However, you don't get to condescend to someone to "expand their vocabulary" while you misuse words. Read your own link next time.

I'm not going to wade through pages of shit to find my answer, so I'll just ask it straight out:

Is this argument over whether attacking Egyptians who you believe to be Muslim because they are brown skinned and speaking Arabic is racism or religious intolerance (or ethnicity-based bigotry)?

Or is it about whether hating Muslims is racism or religious intolerance?

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I'm not going to wade through pages of shit to find my answer, so I'll just ask it straight out:

Is this argument over whether attacking Egyptians who you believe to be Muslim because they are brown skinned and speaking Arabic is racism or religious intolerance (or ethnicity-based bigotry)?

Or is it about whether hating Muslims is racism or religious intolerance?

No, it is about a comment I posted where the commenter said that they hated being called a racist when they weren't, and then turned around and said something that sounded very much like racism. Kaelik said it couldn't be racism because it was directed at Muslims; who don't qualify as a race in his opinion. I feel that the commenter would identify "Muslim" with "Arab" thus meeting both the dictionary definition and the stricter one that Kaelik and friends are pushing for.

Long story short:

Somebody (NOT from the Den) made a comment in the article Crissa linked. It spewed pretty hateful stuff against Muslims.

Somebody called it racist.

Others pointed out "It's shitty religious intolerance, but it's not racist!"

And then Crissa started bitching.

So, actually, the actual content of the article is moot. What is being discussed is one of the comments posted in response to the article. And it doesn't really mention skin color or ethnicity. Just that Muslims are evil and stuff.

Zinegata wrote:Others pointed out "It's shitty religious intolerance, but it's not racist!"

I'm just going to point out that the commenter felt that they were being called a racist for their actions, and that those actions (at least as I deduced from the content of their post) were hating on Muslims. So they would meet their own standard for racism. Also, they didn't seem to see anything racist in the actions of the mob, which indisputably met the criteria for racism.

So.... you're saying they're racist because they're defending themselves from claims of racism, and are pointing out they actually hate Muslims and not any particular race?

That doesn't make them racist at all.

The only way you can call someone racist is if they do, in fact, shoot people for being Black/Jew/White/Whatever. Or say "I hate Blacks/Arabs/Whatever".

If you want to assume they're racist because those guys "looked" Arab, you're free to assume whatever you want. But that doesn't make it fact unless you have psychic powers and can read other people's minds.

Frankly, this is simply a lunatic topic being perpetuated by certain people who are crazy, prejudiced, and intolerant themselves.

Death to the Judean Liberation Front!

I linked to some asshats who beats up a pair of their fellow religous intolerants for being arab and mistaken for the target of their protest.

In other words, being racist.

I ignored Kaelik, as is nominally useful.

-Crissa

Crissa, seriously, stop being a troll.

Honestly, every other thread and tangent that involves political hate mongering is started by you.

Your politics don't give you the right to wail at nice people like Maj. Frankly, your politics can go fuck themselves in the Internets.

Zinegata wrote:So.... you're saying they're racist because they're defending themselves from claims of racism, and are pointing out they actually hate Muslims and not any particular race?

That doesn't make them racist at all.

So you think that this person, who identifies all Muslims as terrorists, is also identifying them as terrorists of all colors? Don't be stupid. And certainly don't give me that, "You can't say that unless you are able to read their minds, man!" That is some Crissa bullshit where you can't identify with or analyze people unless you are also a member of the group they belong to.
I'm disturbed by the fact that the constant allegations of racism by some people on this board seems to promote a harsh backlash against any allegations of racism. Instead of looking at the situation based on it's merits, you just kneejerk in the opposite direction in response to a perception of bias.
I'm not trying to call everyone a racist, but I don't think that the person willing to make one sweeping and offensive generalization is really going to make the a distinction between Muslims in general, and Arab Muslims. After all, they don't make a distinction between Muslims in general and Muslim Terrorists, who are a much smaller subset of the faith.

EDIT:

Zinegata wrote:Your politics don't give you the right to wail at nice people like Maj. Frankly, your politics can go fuck themselves in the Internets.

By this metric, you have no right to talk to Crissa and I have no right to talk to you. Our disagreements do actually give us the right to disagree, publicly even.

Akula->

I don't know what they're thinking.

And neither do you.

So if you wanna use big words like racism nilly-willy, that's your problem. Just don't act shocked and surprised that the rest of the world doesn't agree. Everyone has their own political beliefs.

The truth quite honestly, is very simple. You have a problem with racists. You're trying to make this issue about racists.

My advice? Take your politics elsewhere because quite honestly nobody gives a shit what anyone thinks in the off-topic forum of a gaming forum. All it does is to promote silly and petty hate-mongering.

Edit: I don't give a shit about what you think is or is not moral equivalency. All I know is this: Maj is a pretty decent person making a correct point. Crissa is wailing on her because of Crissa's politics.

So fuck you.

Because I believe in treating people accordingly.

Akula wrote:

ubernoob wrote:No, we have another word for that. Expand your vocabulary.

Not to be pedantic, but xenophobia is a fear of all things foreign. It wouldn't be a hatred for sharing a specific nationality, but for not sharing one. When someone is fine with people from every culture/nationality but one, they aren't a xenophobe. According to you, they aren't a racist either. However, you don't get to condescend to someone to "expand their vocabulary" while you misuse words. Read your own link next time.

I did. Hating someone because they are foreign is straight up hating them for being foreign (aka from another country). If you hate them for a different reason, it's not hating them because they're foreign and is something else. It's really simple. But really, that's not the main issue. The main issue is that by applying racism to everything everywhere, you make the word lose it's power and when you do that, the word has less power to publicly shame actual bigots and that just creates more racial divide. So stop overusing shit because you're actually helping the people you 'hate' so much become socially acceptable.

Zinegata wrote:I don't know what they're thinking.

And neither do you.

Aw snap, shit just got real. Maybe I haven't been clear enough, but I doubt that. I think you have been trying to read between my lines so hard you went and lost sight of what I plainly said.

So if you wanna use big words like racism nilly-willy, that's your problem. Just don't act shocked and surprised that the rest of the world doesn't agree. Everyone has their own political beliefs.

I understand racism better than you. And I don't level accusations "willy-nilly" (fixed for you BTW) I had reasons, and I stated them for you. And it isn't a political belief. It IS an issue of respect and tolerance. If that is political to you, then at least one half of the political spectrum is seriously fucked up.

The truth quite honestly, is very simple. You have a problem with racists. You're trying to make this issue about racists.

Only because this issue is about racists, if you mean the mosque in New York, the protesters seriously tries to beat up guys for looking like Arabs, which to them equals Muslims. The people want to paint Muslims as a bunch of outsiders, animals, and murderers. And since they take the 9/11 terrorists to be all Muslims, they have a massive stereotype with a strong racial component. That is fucking racist.

My advice? Take your politics elsewhere because quite honestly nobody gives a shit what anyone thinks in the off-topic forum of a gaming forum. All it does is to promote silly and petty hate-mongering.

The comments were mentioned, I read one, the irony made me laugh, thus it went in the thread about things that make us laugh. Or do you get to decide what is a suitable topic for posting? My original post wasn't about my fucking politics. This isn't about my problem with racists. This is about something that made me fucking laugh; and if you and Kaelik and Ubernoob weren't going around pedantically defending ever person who just might not be a fucking racist then that is what it would have stayed as. Don't tell me I can't use the thread, don't tell me to take my politics elsewhere, don't give me shit about having to make posts you bloody care about. Suck my dick.

Akula->

Honestly, I looked at the length of the post, shrugged, and decided not to read it.

Again, my advice? Take your politics elsewhere because you clearly are taking this whole racism thing way too seriously even if you don't wanna admit it.

DEATH TO THE JUDEAN LIBERATION FRONT!

Akula wrote: if you and Kaelik and Ubernoob weren't going around pedantically defending ever person who just might not be a fucking racist then that is what it would have stayed as. Don't tell me I can't use the thread, don't tell me to take my politics elsewhere, don't give me shit about having to make posts you bloody care about. Suck my dick.

Yo dawg, I think I summed up the important parts here:

ubernoob wrote:But really, that's not the main issue. The main issue is that by applying racism to everything everywhere, you make the word lose it's power and when you do that, the word has less power to publicly shame actual bigots and that just creates more racial divide. So stop overusing shit because you're actually helping the people you 'hate' so much become socially acceptable.

The more people you call something, the less special the word is and the less stigma there is for being accused of it. Thus, accusations of racism should be reserved for, y'know, racism if we want to keep the stigma on the word so we can keep shaming people into pretending to be tolerant.

ubernoob wrote:I did. Hating someone because they are foreign is straight up hating them for being foreign (aka from another country).

This is what you decided to snark at:

Hating people for sharing a nationality is racist.

With Xenophobia:

: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

Can you see how these things have no relationship? If a person hates a specific nationality that isn't their own, they are not a xenophobe. The are a bigot. You have to have a hatred of all (in common usage I think most would be okay) nationalities that aren't your own to be a xenophobe. If you hate people that happen to be foreign, but only those foreigners that share another trait, like religion or ethnicity, you aren't a xenophobe, you are a racist.

If you hate them for a different reason, it's not hating them because they're foreign and is something else.

Thanks for the tautology. I wonder why you didn't understand it earlier.

that's not the main issue. The main issue is that by applying racism to everything everywhere, you make the word lose it's power and when you do that, the word has less power to publicly shame actual bigots and that just creates more racial divide. So stop overusing shit because you're actually helping the people you 'hate' so much become socially acceptable.

You with your "I hate everyone ever so it's okay. I'm not a hater because it is equal opportunity!" Are seriously giving me this shit?
Conversely, if racism is never invoked it has no power. And this is a pretty clear cut case of racism. Or is it more acceptable to hate on a religious group without cause? Is that bigotry more acceptable to you? Because your argument is that I will rob racism of it's power if I identify it with something that should be equally shameful? It would become no less powerful, just less specific. I don't think I'm actually doing that, but your argument is silly anyway.

Zinegata wrote:Akula->

Honestly, I looked at the length of the post, shrugged, and decided not to read it.

Again, my advice? Take your politics elsewhere because you clearly are taking this whole racism thing way too seriously even if you don't wanna admit it.

DEATH TO THE JUDEAN LIBERATION FRONT!

I hope you will understand if I never read one of your intellectually bankrupt posts again. Also, Ubernoob, you best talk to your boy Zinegata. Cause he seems to think that I shouldn't bring up stuff like racism because it isn't serious, and you think I shouldn't bring it up because it is too serious. The mixed signals, they confuse me.

Akula wrote:Is that bigotry more acceptable to you? Because your argument is that I will rob racism of it's power if I identify it with something that should be equally shameful? It would become no less powerful, just less specific. I don't think I'm actually doing that, but your argument is silly anyway.

No. My argument is that Crissa will rob racism of its power. You use it rarely enough that I've seen, that even if you do misuse it, the impact isn't detrimental.

Akula wrote:I hope you will understand if I never read one of your intellectually bankrupt posts again.

Awesome!

Death to the Judean Liberation Front!

Also, Ubernoob, you best talk to your boy Zinegata. Cause he seems to think that I shouldn't bring up stuff like racism because it isn't serious, and you think I shouldn't bring it up because it is too serious. The mixed signals, they confuse me.

I am not ubernoob's boy

And you are still taking this way too fucking seriously.

ubernoob wrote:

Akula wrote:Is that bigotry more acceptable to you? Because your argument is that I will rob racism of it's power if I identify it with something that should be equally shameful? It would become no less powerful, just less specific. I don't think I'm actually doing that, but your argument is silly anyway.

No. My argument is that Crissa will rob racism of its power. You use it rarely enough that I've seen, that even if you do misuse it, the impact isn't detrimental.

We're talking about people who attacked brown people and justified it that brown people were Muslims and Muslims were involved in 9/11, right? There was no evidence at all that they were involved in 9/11, nor was there any evidence that they were Muslims. Indeed, they weren't Muslims.

The statement "Brown people are all Muslim terrorists" is no less racist than "Black people are thieves and murderers." The fact that they justify the lynching on religious grounds doesn't make it not racist any more than the crosses on KKK uniforms makes them not racist. There is some embedded religious intolerance there as well, what with the accusation that the targets are Muslims being apparently enough to justify hitting them. But the proximal reason for them being hit is still that the targets are Brown.

The evidence they had to start the lynching, the only evidence they had to start the lynching, was that the skin of the victims was Brown. That's racism. DUH!

Now: Shut the fuck up. Continuing to split hairs on this issue is making you look like a fucking idiot. It's not relevant if Crissa plays the racism card too often in general, because she's playing it exactly correctly right now. So even if, in general, you have a problem with Crissa over using that term, now is not the time to pick that fight. The time to pick that fight would be any other time when you think she's using it incorrectly. Because she sure as fuck isn't using it incorrectly right now.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

ubernoob wrote:

Akula wrote:Is that bigotry more acceptable to you? Because your argument is that I will rob racism of it's power if I identify it with something that should be equally shameful? It would become no less powerful, just less specific. I don't think I'm actually doing that, but your argument is silly anyway.

No. My argument is that Crissa will rob racism of its power. You use it rarely enough that I've seen, that even if you do misuse it, the impact isn't detrimental.

We're talking about people who attacked brown people and justified it that brown people were Muslims and Muslims were involved in 9/11, right? There was no evidence at all that they were involved in 9/11, nor was there any evidence that they were Muslims. Indeed, they weren't Muslims.

The statement "Brown people are all Muslim terrorists" is no less racist than "Black people are thieves and murderers." The fact that they justify the lynching on religious grounds doesn't make it not racist any more than the crosses on KKK uniforms makes them not racist. There is some embedded religious intolerance there as well, what with the accusation that the targets are Muslims being apparently enough to justify hitting them. But the proximal reason for them being hit is still that the targets are Brown.

The evidence they had to start the lynching, the only evidence they had to start the lynching, was that the skin of the victims was Brown. That's racism. DUH!

Now: Shut the fuck up. Continuing to split hairs on this issue is making you look like a fucking idiot. It's not relevant if Crissa plays the racism card too often in general, because she's playing it exactly correctly right now. So even if, in general, you have a problem with Crissa over using that term, now is not the time to pick that fight. The time to pick that fight would be any other time when you think she's using it incorrectly. Because she sure as fuck isn't using it incorrectly right now.

-Username17

Would you mind telling me what you disagree with this?

Kaelik wrote:

Crissa wrote:No, that is racist. We've had this argument before, there are small racists and blatant racists. They're still racists.

No really Crissa.

Here is a list of things he is upset about:

1) Shady funding
2) The existence of this Mosque.
3) A Particular Imam he hates.
4) Attempting to break the Gaza Blockade.
5) Some more shit about money.
6) The people responsible for Terrorist attack could be funding this Mosque.
7) Islam is a religion of murderers.

While 1 and 5 are almost certainly just cover for 3 and 7, and he probably hates all Imams, and 6 is only because he thinks all muslims are identical.

NONE OF THAT IS ABOUT RACE!

Islam is not a race. It is a religion. And while whoever attacked the Egyptian guys was probably racist, or at least really really really stupid, nothing this stupid commenter has said is racist.

Because Islam is not a race.

So if you want to say, "he's probably racist because people who hate an entire religion for the actions of a few probably also generalize to hating the most prevalent race(s) of that religion."

That's totally fine. But if you want to claim that he is racist because he has said something racist, point to the fucking racist thing he has said, because, once again Islam is not a race. And merely disagreeing with you about something does not in and of itself constitute racism.

Specifically, note the last two paragraphs.

FrankTrollman wrote:Now: Shut the fuck up. Continuing to split hairs on this issue is making you look like a fucking idiot. It's not relevant if Crissa plays the racism card too often in general, because she's playing it exactly correctly right now. So even if, in general, you have a problem with Crissa over using that term, now is not the time to pick that fight. The time to pick that fight would be any other time when you think she's using it incorrectly. Because she sure as fuck isn't using it incorrectly right now.

-Username17

It's not that she's using it incorrectly. It's that she's wailing on people who are referring to something else (namely, a comment on the article that was dissected by Kaelik), which really wasn't racist.

And it's probably wailing tinged by the fact she was embarassed in another thread at how there are, in fact, many different kinds of feminists.

Now, if you wanna be mad at someone unwilling to condemn people as "racist" because they attacked brown guys, that's me.

Because the humor of the article derives from the fact that they had mistakenly beaten up Christians when they were aiming to go for Muslims. That's why I'm still far more inclined to peg this to religious intolerance. Did they beat'm up because they were brown? Sure, probably. But I don't know for sure, I'm not inclined to find out, and all I'm taking away from this is the humor of having a bunch of prejudiced idiots commit an embarassing act of friendly fire.

Because like I said, it's really nothing to lose sleep over.

OK, well I'm in Eastern Europe, and Islam is a Race.

The major ethnicities of the Former Yugslavia are:

• Croatians (Catholics)
• Serbians (Eastern Orthodox)
• Muslims (Muslims)
• Jews (Jews)

Those are the major "races" on census forms.

It's fucking stupid, but there it is. People think of religious affiliations as ethnicities, they are treated as ethnicities. And since none of the "races" actually exist anyway, they actually are ethnicities.

It is not incorrect to talk about Irish "racial tensions" because Protestants and Catholics treat each other as different races. And that is exactly as valid as talking about racial differences between Koreans and Hungarians.

So yes. If someone starts going on about Muslims this and Muslims that, they are almost certainly racist against Muslims. And you can take your terminology hair splitting and shove it up your ass, because it doesn't mean dick to the Ustaša.

-Username17